Contemporary Vernacular Design - Clare Nash - BS081

Jeffrey Hart  0:00  
Welcome to building sustainability podcast with me your host Jeffrey Hart, aka Jeffrey, the natural builder every fortnight. Join me as I talk to designers, builders, makers, dreamers and doers. Exploring the wide world of sustainability in the built environment by talking to wonderful people who are doing excellent things. Hello, and welcome to episode 81. This episode I am once again joined by the architect Claire Nash. This time we are talking about contemporary vernacular design, how British housing can rediscover soul. And this is all based around a book that Claire wrote, she talks a little bit about it in Episode 80. If you haven't heard it yet, I think the two standalone, but you might want to go and listen to that one first. But this was her Master's dissertation that she she got the opportunity to turn into a book. And she went off and did lots of research around the world. Looking at housing schemes that draw on traditional vernacular principles while taking into account modern day materials methods and financial or energy requirements. I'm reading this from the blurb on the book now, the aim is to show how despite mass housing needs, we can design quality modern schemes that fit their surroundings and generate a sense of place community and regional identity rather than the poor quality identikit housing currently seen wherever you are in the UK. And and the book was written from years of primary research, including site visits and interviews with the actual residents themselves. I should say that I haven't actually read this book. It is on my list. I have a big list of things to get my head into once the house is finished. And if I'm honest once I stopped spending all of my money on paint and stuff like that, so yes, when there's bit of spare income, I shall be investing in some lovely books. To go on this lovely bookshelf that I am sat in front of. In this episode, we talk a little bit about Poundbury, which regular listeners to the podcast might remember was featured in episode number six, with no English word. And maybe you'd like to hear more about Poundbury and its design principles. Okay, that's it from me. Join me back at the end, if you'd like to hear a little bit more about where I am with the house build. If that's your kind of thing, make sure you listen to the end, otherwise enjoy Claire Nash.

So contemporary vernacular design, how British housing can rediscover its soul as a beautiful title. First of all, as a very pleased to read that maybe we could start on like what your what your definition of vernacular design is.

Clare Nash  3:16  
So architects, I'll argue about this a bit. But everybody agrees that vernacular architecture is how people built without architects or anybody, you know, not top down approach literally just bottom up, this is what I need to build my house and usually done as a community as part of the village and inherently sustainable because it would use local materials, and had thick walls and small windows to keep out to keep the heat in and the cold wind out. Whereas now of course, we want the opposite. We still need to keep the heat in. But we want lots of light. And sorry, I'm probably digressing a bit here. But this is

Jeffrey Hart  3:58  
where it makes grass all you want. That's what this is about.

Clare Nash  4:02  
This is where it and I call it contemporary vernacular. But other architects will call it something slightly different probably. But it's what I mean by that is learning from the way people used to build without architects and mass house building and so on, and take those inherent sustainable technologies and apply them to a modern day building that we want to live in with our modern lifestyles. Because in the past, we would have mostly been working in the land and would have had way too much daylight. And we want to do at the end of the day is huddled around the fire and hide from the cold wind that we've had to put up with all day. And whereas now we spend way too much time indoors. It's the opposite. So we want big windows and lots of light and feeling of space as well because we're not outside as much so but you can still do that with all the fun activities. analogies like, I was thinking, actually Passivhaus is very much like. So in the past we, we had a house next to a barn because the warmth from the carols would heat our living spaces. And nowadays, we don't want to live next to cows. But in a passive house, you use the heat from the appliances to heat the building, because it's so airtight, sealed and full of insulation that you need very little to heat it. So that, you know, that's the sort of analogy for the modern day. But but and there's loads of other sort of bits that I have in the book like overhanging eaves that they have in Austria and external circulation, which was just to save space. But actually, today is really helpful for solar shading, so that we don't have overheating, and also still save space for circulation, and gives people you know, balconies and things like that all rounders, which people love branders I love wonder. But yeah, so there's lots of things to be taken from that we don't need to go back to living in mud huts, but there's a lot to be learned from the mud hut like in them. In China, they historically they lived in cave dwellings, well, some people still do. I stayed in one it was, which was fun. And but the you know, there are downsides to that. Because although a cave dwelling will maintain a constant 16 degree internal temperature, even with huge changes in temperature outside like freezing winters and boiling summers that they have in northern China. The downsides was that the windows were made of paper originally. Not so nice. So she I'm University, we're concerned about poorer people moving from the countryside into cities and living in the standard apartment block, which is just concrete, and then not being able to afford to heat it because concrete, you know, thin walled concrete is very bad insulator and won't retain any heat. So, so that yeah, fuel poverty was a big issue. So they were trying to create a new version of the cave dwelling, which is also culturally important, because Chairman Mao plotted the Czech cultural revolution in it and you know, historically, it's important, you know, a bit like we love our Cotswold cottages, there's a lot of nostalgia associated with it, too. But they updated it, they made it more earthquake proof. So it's still an earth building, but a little bit of concrete added green roof over the top, and they still retained the candle bed, which is a central bed that is heated from residual heat from the stove. And everybody sits there, it's like quite a family thing. They sleep on it, and they sit there during the day, and very cheap to heat that, especially if you've only got to start from a 16 degree base temperature. That's a much more efficient way of doing things. And yeah, you know, proper glass windows. So that was their modern version. And it's, it's quite aspirational. And it's a sort of commercially minded hotel did a whole load of them near where to Chairman Mao plotted the Cultural Revolution, which attracts tourists, and then you can stay in your own hotel version. So, you know, it's all about changing mindset, because it becomes aspirational. It's not a poor person's dwelling anymore. This is for everybody. That, yes, that was really interesting. So stuff like that. I think there's way more things we could use and apply to modern day building.

Jeffrey Hart  8:48  
And do you see? Well, I mean, let's talk a little bit about the state of sort of modern building. The the, well, why don't you just tell me what you think, the state of modern building?

Clare Nash  9:03  
Well, I just think it's very worrying that an awful lot of what we're building now will need to be retrofitted to meet the climate crisis targets. They just, it is just unbelievable. Basically, it doesn't make any sense to me at all, why would you spend the money at all doing that? And you know, the carbon footprint of these buildings will take 50 years to get to zero anyway. So it's really important that our new builds really make sense. Because the far more eco thing to do is to retrofit because it's an existing building. The carbon footprint is very low, then because yeah, what we don't want to do is increase our carbon footprint, not least for buildings that aren't even 00 You know, zero energy bills or whatever. It's, it's just really disappointing. To put it lightly

Jeffrey Hart  10:00  
Yes, I've read incredibly. So. Yeah. But how about in sort of in terms of, sort of relating to place? And so that sort of with any connection to the vernacular? Yeah, well, I heard two Jews have an area

Clare Nash  10:14  
Exactly. It's just, you know, at the border of every single town now is the same red brick box. And there used to be much more variation. And that's what I was trying to show with the case studies in the book is that these are all so different. And so nice, and so loved by the people living there, and they might not have chosen to live there. They might be housing association tenants, but they're still loved. And the sense of community was much better. People, you know, isn't just like the typical housing estate where you just drive up and then you go into your house, and don't talk to your neighbour, though, there were lots of opportunities to bump into people on these schemes. And the community was much stronger because of it. Even something as simple as a shared carriage. meant, like, I interviewed some people in one housing scheme in Wales, and they'd only been there six months. And already, they knew the name of each other's cats. Right, that just doesn't happen normally. And that was just a shared garage, sort of a band style garage with like a carport. And each person had their own space. So when you parked your car up, you park it next to your neighbor's car, and you have to walk across so you're more interaction possibility. And then their gardens were open ended, which was quite radical. So they'd have fences on either side. But then at the end was a lovely field and a pond, which attracted people. So again, they have more opportunity to speak to each other, but also total privacy in their homes because the sound insulation was amazing. And you had no idea anybody was next door, even though it was a terrorist until you're in the garden, and that was lovely. But then other ones they've had, like in Dagenham, there was a scheme for less abled people and older people. So that with a nice green that you could walk through to get to your house. And so people who weren't able to leave their house could sit in their lovely big window and wave at people as they went past which really helped reduce social isolation. And also, the crime rate was extremely low, like not even just for Dagenham, which has very high rates but but anywhere because you if you were a burglar, you just feel like you're being watched all the time, because you know, the overlooking the feeling so good for social, social side, but also reduces crime. There are lots of examples like that. Just a bit better design,

Jeffrey Hart  12:52  
why did those get designed better than the sort of conventional offering the driving force,

Clare Nash  12:59  
I think it was, in some cases, it was a landowner that was very minded that if I'm going to give away this piece of land, I want to be able to walk into the pub afterwards and hold my head high. And feel proud that this happened on my land. It wasn't just about the money for them. In in other cases, it was a housing association, because they have a longer term view. They want really good quality buildings that with happy tenants for a very long time. And that that's always the case, if you have the more long term mindset you are the more inherently sustainable your actions are going to be. And that's sort of the problem with the industry at the moment. It's just all about sailing. And that you know the bottom line. That being said, there was a major house builder, who did a case study in my book, and they worked with Joseph Roundtree trust, so it was very driven by the client who wanted very good quality housing on their land again, but it wasn't a housing association. So the house builder had to deliver really high quality eco Homes and Community and something to be proud of. And it worked. But also the house builder made a lot of money. Because the they charge more. And because it was a flagships ship scheme, they got really, really good deals from all their suppliers. So it was it was just kind of the opposite of what housebuilders had previously said, where they're saying, oh, you know, we can't deliver this because people don't want it and it costs more, and we weren't making enough money. So it just disproved all of those things. But I also think the government needs to set higher targets because the problem with how it is at the minute is that shareholders will go out where if they're not making enough money from the house builders, but if you put them on a on a level playing field, you all have to achieve these targets, then there's nowhere for the shareholders to go, you know, they're all going to stay there. They're not competing with each other in the same way. And that's not me saying that that's house builders has said that at conferences that they'll all happily do it. If the government makes them do it.

Jeffrey Hart  15:07  
I guess the My thought was if we had vernacular buildings, and then now we sort of have these big, soulless developments, and where where did that shift happen?

Clare Nash  15:26  
I think it was post war really, because we just needed a lot of housing very quickly. I think that's where it started. And then it's just land prices have gone up and up and up and become, you know, impossible to get hold of if you're not, if you haven't got big bucks, basically. And also tricky to get planning permission on because, you know, the plan is see housing development is more beneficial, well, partner anything else, they get the cell payments or the section 106 payments from that, whereas they don't from an individual self build, but there's more justification for it, because it's providing homes for a lot of people where it's a one off isn't. But cohousing people have got around this a bit by joining forces. But even then it still takes a long time to be able to find the right piece of land, that the a is, you know, it's viable to build on it and be likely to get planning permission is tricky. And there have been some quite good schemes. So you know, self build schemes, like Darwish. Norwich is doing some and self and custom build schemes, where you and graven Hill, of course, is they have their golden brick thing. So you pay for a plot and it's already got foundations and services in it, and then you can you have a lot of choice over the rest of it. So that they're just, but there just aren't enough of them. That's what I think. And there are, you know, some the wealth, the good quality schemes that are put in my case studies, but you know, again, just not enough of

Jeffrey Hart  17:01  
them. Have you have you got a favourite?

Clare Nash  17:05  
No. Just I like all of them for different reasons. Yeah. I found them all really inspiring. And I'd have like, I'd have happily lived in any of them.

Jeffrey Hart  17:18  
That's that's saying something, isn't it? Yeah.

Clare Nash  17:21  
Yeah, yeah, we're just nice Happy Places to Live with happy people. And, you know, buildings that just work and keep you warm, or cool, whichever you want. And plenty of light. And that standard thing of, because house builders are often trying to build something traditional, because we want the nostalgic cottage thing, but they blow it up. Because that doesn't work. That that country cottage thing only really works if you ever to up to down, otherwise, the scale is all wrong. But they still do that. And with the smaller windows, because it's much cheaper to put in smaller windows. But also it looks like the country cottage thing sawed off. But then the first thing people do is plunk on a horrible plastic conservatory, because they want more light. And then it's too hot in summer, and it's too cold in winter. And they're pumping heat into it and winter to make it useful. Because they probably got their home office in there or something. And it just, none of it works. And if you did it right in the first place with more light in the first place, then nobody would feel like they needed to do that. And that was nice about those schemes that it was integral. It was already there. So yeah, that was, you know, and so I don't know, if you're going to it might cost you a little bit more at the beginning, I suppose. But then any new build does to be honest. But then you haven't got to factor in the fact that you need an extension or a conservatory or whatever, soon after, then you could sing really,

Jeffrey Hart  18:51  
so So what do you think, are the elements of contemporary vernacular design

Clare Nash  18:57  
thing, the key one is that it's not a pastiche or a style. It's, it comes from what is needed from the home in the first place very much like a binocular home does is just the method will be different now. So it might be a prefab home. So it's made in a factory, which does definitely suit the British climate very well because you don't have to worry about the weather too much when you're building but and it makes things like air tightness a lot easier and, and so on but because most of its done before and yeah, so think things like that and her community, I think that's still really important. So it might not be that the whole village works together although they still do that in Germany, which is very nice, but it would be cohousing or community minded development. So you're thinking about how people will use this space and interact with each other. Because inevitably we have to do is a top down approach. Now it can't be a bottom up approach unless you're very fortunate and have some land to build on which is rare. Yeah, so we have to find ways round of still giving those benefits, but it with a different method. That's the principle of it.

Jeffrey Hart  20:10  
I think when I think back to, well, they're in a town I used to live in, there was a road, which went out out of out of town. And you could see every different housing development that had been built. And you could sort of you sort of saw the 50s design, and then the 60s design. And the thing that was in common was that there was one kind of rubbishy little playground in the middle. And that was like their, that the sort of community help. I know, a lot of them didn't even have a shop. Yeah, so how do you sort of approach designing those things in.

Clare Nash  20:44  
I mean, we were working on development at the moment, which is in a village, and I'm, the principal of it is that it should feel a bit like a farm yard. And the houses are set around it. And then there's the shared car parking barn, which has home offices above it. And so there's straightaway more possibility for interaction, and there's more trees that hide the cars. Because that's the other thing that's sad about modern life is estates, housing estates are pretty much glorified car parks. And that's what they look like, apart from the time of day when everybody's driven off in them to work or whatever. And they're not very attractive. And the Dutch scheme I looked at got around that by having pocket parking spaces. So they had a scheme which had lots of lovely, narrow streets in it, which were very village like, but you couldn't, you could get a car through for unloading and loading. But not for parking at all. And, and then they'd have sort of 20 car car parks dotted around, but very well, his in with the landscaping. So, you know, I didn't really notice at first I had to sort of go looking for where the car parks were. Because what I noticed was the lovely bridges over the nice canals and the little streets and the children playing in those streets because the cars weren't running them over and that stuff. But then the Yeah, it is tricky. Because, you know, I myself, also, when I had a child really liked the fact that I could drive right up to my door. And if he was still asleep in the car, I could leave him for a bit and then watch him from the kitchen. And you can't do that in that situation. But on. But the benefits of the Dutch one were brilliant. And nobody moaned about it. You know, they moaned about things like the wrong bath being installed, but they didn't matter about the fact that their car was a few yards away, because the benefits far outweighed it. You know, their kids can play on the streets. And Dutch, the Dutch obviously do a lot of cycling. So that's another culture thing, but you know, it can perfectly work in Oxford, or Cambridge, where there's also a big cycling culture. So yeah, I thought things like that we could do but you know, it's it's tricky to change British culture. Sometimes, yes.

Jeffrey Hart  23:11  
Yes. It's interesting how sort of into, into woven the sort of the car is to sort of lack of community. Thinking about in Bristol, they do things where they they close off the streets and have reclaim their street and have people walking around on it. And, and, you know, and it's, yeah, we've sort of put all of our focus on making it good for cars. Yeah. Not Forgotten about people.

Clare Nash  23:42  
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a shame because people will walk if it's easier. And it's nicer to do that, but if if they've got to walk along a busy street with constant traffic and fumes and things, they're not going to do it, they will want to, you know, get find another way. Yeah, I think I think it is better now. Because we are trying to encourage more sustainable transport. But in the past, it was, I can't remember cycling around Cardiff. When I was a student and you get to the cycling lane, we just stop in the middle of nowhere. And there was nowhere else to go apart from a very busy road. That stuff like that was just really stupid, like not not joined up thinking. I think there's a bit less of that now. Thank goodness. But we still got quite a long way to go. I mean, we're miles off the Dutch or the Danish. Yes.

Jeffrey Hart  24:34  
Although I only found out recently that the the Amsterdam was a big beer. Horrible few me car city up until 70s. I think Oh, wow. Sort of relatively relatively recently. Yeah. They they decided to make the switch. Yeah. Which gives me hope that yes, maybe we could do the same. Yeah.

Clare Nash  24:53  
And I think moving to electric cars will help with the pollution aspect. So because it's really worrying that people are dying from pollution caused illness, which the fact that it was quite recently, I think, five years ago or something that the first case was proven that it was direct cause of living on a busy road, this girl died because of the pollution. So, you know, unfortunately, we need that kind of data to shift how we design cities and the type of cars we use. I'm intrigued

Jeffrey Hart  25:27  
to know what you think of Poundbury? Oh, yeah, because that that was a city designed or town designed around the being walkable,

Clare Nash  25:40  
I think there's place poor boundaries in the world. I mean, architects quite sniffy about it, because it's definitely a prestige. But the community stuff is good. And people do really like living there. And, you know, pay more to live there. So you know, those bits have worked. And actually, I'm, I'm really think what Prince Charles has been trying to do for decades. You know, it's fashionable now. But he's been really drying for a long time. And he's, he's done pretty well. You know, it's not my cup of tea that sort of has to sell but you know, at least it's different. Yes. And it's better quality. And it was using local craftsmen and all that sort of local lovely stuff. You know, the values were definitely in the right place. So yeah, I'd rather have more of that than the red brick box. Definitely.

Jeffrey Hart  26:36  
Yep. Yeah, well. I think I'd like to talk about sort of materials. And and I guess, yeah, I saw on your slides that you wrote placemaking. Was was very important. And I have to say, I don't really understand what placemaking is. But what it made me think of is just, you know, the vernacular buildings that were built from the materials that were locally, kind of creating a sense of place, because of because of the palette that's that's around them. Is that I mean, first of all, if I got anywhere close to understanding what that is, and then also just, how is that being sort of implemented in these these modern designs?

Clare Nash  27:25  
Yeah, so placemaking means just trying to create a sense of place, so that when you like, when you were previously we were and still now if you look at the older buildings, there's definitely it's different being in a Norfolk village than it is being in a Scottish village, or, you know, wherever. And that's a sense of place. And, but it can also be, you can have it in cities. So being in the British Museum with its triple height spaces and stuff. That's a sense of place also. So yeah, but what, what, it's not just plunking houses in a row, and just hoping for the best kind of thing. It's really thinking about how, what is this place about? And what am I trying to say with it? And who's it serving? And, you know, how, how could we best serve those people and make it you know, and design out crime and things like that? So, rather than focusing on the number of units, it's just more about designing the place itself.

Jeffrey Hart  28:33  
Great. Got you. Thank you. Thank you for explaining that. Is there anywhere that's, that's really done, done that? Well,

Clare Nash  28:42  
what any of the cases is in my book, I

Jeffrey Hart  28:47  
really should just read your book.

Clare Nash  28:50  
Yeah, I think the Dutch scheme was probably, and this is why it was important to me to go to the international ones because I think as an outsider, you see it more. It's more easily identifiable. And because of the polder landscape with the canals and the bridges and things, which didn't look twee, it just looked very natural. And they chose they deliberately chose to work with five different architects and then dotted the different houses around so that unless you were an architect, and so you wouldn't be able to say all that architected that or that architecture that there wasn't like a whole row of one architects style, and then another row and then so they were trying to create a sort of village like feeling, but it's a modern build. So I'd say they got that really well. What do

Jeffrey Hart  29:41  
you think the the effect is on the people that that grew up either in one of these sort of really good examples or poor examples?

Clare Nash  29:50  
Well, the people that lived in the Dutch one said how they recognised bits from their childhood things they liked, you know, the nostalgic Dutch house, you know from Yeah, and but could also see all the modern benefits that they get from living in a more modern version. And the Dutch actually would know these architects, Pharaoh architect, and they called, they did a study about the preference in the population for a particular architectural style. And it was something in the middle. So there are a few people that like the the old style few people that like the Uber modern style, but most people want is something in the middle. Which is quite interesting, which, because often they'll say they want the more traditional thing, but they don't really, because you haven't, you haven't given them the option of the the sort of hybrid version. Because you know, you're either given the new build house that is the red brick box with the small windows, or the Yeah, or it's an old house that you need to do work to. It's bit cold and damp, maybe, you know, and there's not much in between, in this country. But in Holland, there is more. And all of the schemes in the book with that, in between thing, the best of both worlds.

Jeffrey Hart  31:13  
Do you see more of these developments happening in the future? Or do you see, I guess I'm asking you, if you're optimistic or pessimistic about how things are going,

Clare Nash  31:25  
I suppose I have a sort of, yeah, I'm definitely optimistic because like I, for example, even through the course of my business, at the beginning, I was afraid of being too overtly eco on my website, because I desperately needed work. Starting in a recession, that's the number one thing. And I didn't want to frighten people off, because a lot of it is wasn't understood. And so I would write these geeky Ico blogs, that people would find me that way. And so I got, I got the email more Ico clients that way. But if you just came from wanting to find a local architect, and Googling, the front website wouldn't be overtly eco. So I got both sides. And then when Greta tunberg started doing her own protests and things and the climate marches and all of that stuff, I thought, no, actually, everybody really gets it now. So. So about five years ago, I made it front and centre of the website, and I started writing about our carbon footprint and put that front and all those things. So. And that's been a huge positive thing. People who are like, Oh, we can see you really get it. And this is your passion, and it's not greenwashing, that stuff. So that and now I just see all these lovely positive eco things that are happening and all the funding going into green tech and impact investors won't invest in stuff now unless there's a green element. And you know, where money goes, innovation follows. It's just so I feel more excited about that. From the house building side view, I think they're gonna have to bring in tougher regulations, and then they'll start building better. And they'll just have to start retrofitting all the new builds that don't work, unfortunately. But I also think technology will help us out of that there'll be better air source heat pumps, better solar, better battery storage, etc.

Jeffrey Hart  33:40  
Brilliant to hear from clever and so nice to end on a positive note. It gives me great heart that she is excited and feeling like there's positive change happening over the duration of this and episode 80. It's been really great to hear about Claire's practice. That's Claire Nash architecture. And just see that there's another way and a more people centred way. It feels so refreshing to hear of people doing doing things with with people care at the centre of their work, not only in the work they're doing but actually in the business, the core of the business and looking after themselves. Okay, so where am I with the tiny house. I am so nearly there. It feels pretty incredible. I have checked off almost everything from my list of things to do in January. And it is now the 16th of June. I am still still still waiting for my electrician to come and connect up the final AC power coming from the inverter from the solar. And I'd really like that to happen because I am sick of extent Some cables running through my house. This sounds like a rant. This wasn't meant to be a rant. The one of the good things, the good things are that I am up to just putting trim on things. Now, there is one little bit of decorative weaving I want to do. And then it is just trim, and really minor little things that I might just shove on the snagging list. Which, if I'm honest, won't happen anytime this year. It's been quite interesting to check back, I've got some friends coming to visit for my birthday. And they said, you will when we came to visit last year, you just had a trailer. So it has taken me almost exactly one year from start to finish. Which, I mean, I could never have thought it would take this long. And that's what everyone says. And I should know better because I build houses for a living. But what I've realised is there's a huge truth to the phrase, it goes three times quicker with two people, I think fat, I'd say that's understating how much quicker it goes. As such, I mean, it's it's something that has been both a joy in that I have done literally every last bit of this house. For better or worse. But everything has taken so much longer. The power of just having two people to hold a bit of material, one each end. And while one person screws it, you don't have to come up with a clever jig to hold things. And, you know, I think also, one thing that's really been made clear to me is just how much use there is of being able to talk out loud to someone and just order your thoughts a little bit outside of your brain. I have got stuck in big old loops, where I have just gone round around in circles thinking about what I had to do next, had real trouble prioritising some days, and I think they wouldn't really have happened with just another person say, right, well, let's do this then. So yeah, I'm very, very much looking forward to doing some more building projects in the future, with some more people, some very lovely people. What else to tell you, Oh, do you know what I've got a fridge. And I have been looking forward to having a fridge since January 1, when I moved into this house, when I moved into the building site that is this house. And I got my fridge and I plugged in my fridge. And oh my goodness, it's loud. I don't know if it's just a particularly loud fridge is a DC powered fridge. Or have I just got used to not having a fridge? Or is it because it's more space? Maybe a combination of all of them. But I was previously concerned about how much noise My mvhr was making. And I was thinking is this is this really what I want to hear? And now oh my goodness, that mvhr is a distant memory. It's drowned out entirely by this fridge. So yeah, I don't know. I think maybe down the line. I will look at other fridges joining in my fridge

Come on then. Let's take you for a walk

you ready for this?

So loud it's all I can hear. Oh my goodness, I gotta turn that back off again

not conducive for podcast recording. Well, that was a fun little tangent, wasn't it? My brain is quite mushy at the moment. So I am rambling away. So maybe I should stop. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you very much Glenn ash. Thank you very much to the patrons. If you want to become a patron head to patreon.com forward slash building sustainability. And one final thing Hugo's to how do I say that Peru that goes to Peru, Adam, they left a five star review on Apple podcasts that says excellent podcast. So I found this podcast, I'd been looking for a green building podcast covering a range of areas. And here it is even better and more interesting than I was imagining might be out there. Well done sustainable natural building people. You will totally rock Kiss Kiss Kiss, Kiss Kiss Kiss. Well, thank you Peru, Adam. Kisses received. And yeah, just thank you so much for leaving a review. If anyone else does want to do that, then it really really helps us to be seen by more people. Right? That's definitely enough for me. Thank you for listening to me. Just go on about nothing. See you soon. Goodbye.